Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. How to Resign from a Church I follow Christ. Thats what I think the intention of this blog post was. Then I checked the remaining word-count: well over 600,000. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? Feels your pain with you. If you read it, you will most likely have a heart attack. Also, not all Calvinists are believe in particular pre-destination that is, not all Calvinists believe God causes everything, there are degrees from some just view salvation as pre-destined, to others believing you are reading this because God ordained it from the beginning, so Pipers view of tornadoes is not universally agreed on by Calvinists. What Julie Anne is saying is also elaborated by Christa Brown in chapter 46 of her book This Little Light as well as here: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/ravagedfaith.html, Hester, thank you for that word pictureit will lend an air of drama to my week . The heart and soul of Reformed theology is the glory of the triune God ( Ps. This was the feeling my wife and I got upon entering the world of neocalvinism in 2008. For a son to commit suicide? In addition to the Holy Scriptures as the most important norm, Calvinism serves, apart from Calvin's own theology, as an independent continuation of the theological work of others including that of Augustine and Luther, as well as the works of Reformers such as Philip Melanchthon, Martin Bucer, Heinrich Bullinger, and Theodore Beza, all of whom It might not make people any more interested in Calvinism, but it just bothers me to see a doctrine rejected for the wrong reasons. Yet looking at a book's cover, or even . Im sure there are believers in every venue. I had planned to say the same thing to him. Many of us, view double predestination to be in great conflict with the character of God as He presents Himself in scripture. But whatever I believe about the sovereignty of God, it is MORE important to me to believe that God does not author evil and he does not desire for those he loves to suffer. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. Ask a lot of questions. It sounds to me like a generation of bloggers has mainstreamed hyper-Calvinism. My bet would be that some (many?) I dont know if that helps or confuses- I wish I could have quoted more. Everything. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). Maybe only a part of it is wrong, maybe the whole thing. I also was not the only one who reacted to this. And its not because we cant or are unwilling (as in errant school children who just need some tutoring) to accept, Gods ways to be different from ours.. I try to keep debates in check on the blog and steer away from them as my blog is supposed to be a safe place. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said to him, You are right, Teacher. And thanks for your honest answers. However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. Unless I either stop believing what I think is true or shut up about it, it seems I will forever put in a box of this nonsense, unloving idea that God is the author of evil and we are mindless automatons. I still have those moments, though they are less prolonged than they used to be. ), Maybe I need to be corrected here: I have made the assumption that meticulous sovereignty (God has ordained every word that leaves my mouth, for example) is a tenet of calvinism because I hear it preached and defended vociferously from the reformed camp.. The 5 pillars of calvinism are not found in these creeds. OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. You see, dedicated, intelligent theologianshave gone down this road for centuries and still disagree with one another. God in nature, God in history, God in grace. There are 5 major points of disagreement between Calvinists and Arminians. In general, my beliefs do align with RC Sproul. I. Howard Marshall 28. I DO struggle that when a woman is raped, that God chose not to prevent it. It is counterproductive., I dont understand, then, why, on your blog, you allowed a Calvinism Free For All. I didnt notice any Calvinists telling people that God wanted you to be raped, or something like that. This is a false dichotomy. Craig Keener 25. I cant get there either on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried)., I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. But there are reasons not to make it an issue. We can also agree that God is the author of evil doctrine is evil. And I am fully expecting at least one learned, reformed MAN to give me a tongue lashing. @ Daisy: Your voice is missing! Thinks youre the bees knees. There are many bite marks on my tongue. John Calvin, French Jean Calvin or Jean Cauvin, (born July 10, 1509, Noyon, Picardy, Francedied May 27, 1564, Geneva, Switzerland), theologian and ecclesiastical statesman. We do better together than we do on our own. Could the person have simply avoided it and gone to someplace else without even making the comment? Yet again! This is a list of lists of Christian theologians organized by denomination, century, nationality, and additional specialized categories. whats so complicated about that? I always get a smile on my face when I get an email whichcallsme out on my pitiful understanding of the faith. Believe me, Ive tried. He is also an ordained Baptist minister. And, for that matter, why is his style so difficult? I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. We can just debate doctrine. Granted, some assume Total Depravity to mean human beings to be totally depraved. If I threw a piece of chalk at you, in one very real sense I would be the cause of that chalk flying through the air, having exercised the strength of my right arm. His attitude impresses me. Meyer 17. We may diverge a bit here. It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. I have never doubted the existence and presence of Jesus in my life. When there is someone who has been really, REALLY busted up by a Calvinist, I completely get where the anger comes from. . Ive lost track of the number of times in blog comments where it has been insisted that it means that we are as bad as we can be. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. For there, we will still be the created and He will still be the Creator. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. If Calvinism sounds so much like Arminianism, why is there such a problem? There is too much work to be done. 9. To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. It is the place for me, but maybe not for you. We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. When theology is inaccessible, it is not because God himself is inaccessible, but because it is expressed using made-up words whose meaning is known only to the in-crowd. CALVIN! @ dee: We all went to Bostons Youthtimeno mention of Calvinism, Armininism or in between like me. Hes big enough. Its more that the molecule is not outside of his authority. TULIP was formed many years after Calvins death to counter five points made by followers of Arminius, though the concepts are in Calvins writings. (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) There were many songs that resonated with me, especially I Dont Know How to Love Him. for me that meant there was much i had to learn about loving Jesus. I will say they are much more composed personalities. Argo. I was pointing out that this is an issue that goes beyond Reformed theology. The Bible says they are. Why would the Bible portray God in such a way (that isnt true) just to make a point? I may post a little bit of my testimony and how I came to by position of being a non calvinist but for now just wanted to say thanks for this post and for all that you 2 do and for Wade as well and e-church! The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child. (LogOut/ Whatever part of the stream a Calvinist has adopted (and there are several streams), calling ones self a Calvinist means taking responsibility for the parts of the broader construct that are damaging. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. Olsen is one of the writers who sees two "loose coalitions" developing in evangelical theology. The last point of Calvinism we'll be dealing with is the perseverance of the saints. I notedthat this man often appeared angry to me and blew him off, deciding he was dealing with something in his life. That is biblical. Or at least they start to think they have the powers and rights (divine?) Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. That is biblical. We studied together, looked at what I think is a really good representation of what I (and my church) believes, and he rejects it. I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. Cheers you on. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. Aslan completely domesticated and caged within those 2400 pages of Perfect Doctrine and Parsed Theology? Wow-at least you got the Christian part. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox Prof_Acorn 2 yr. ago But the main thing is that Ive been a Calvinist for a long time- probably 15 years. I liked that. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. I am not saying that you or anyone else *shouldnt* feel that way that would be absurd. To give a sense of scale for word count well over 600,000: Rule of thumb for both manuscript format and mass-market paperback is 250 words/page. I used to think I was too till I went to Bible College and studied it in more depth. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. Its very difficult and exhausting having a conversation with people who claim you never, ever get their views correct. I also want to learn to be a bit more like Olson, showing kindness in the midst of disagreement. Does not compute. I can completely understand why people would want to flee from that garbage- I want to flee from it too. Keith Green (the only musician that made the list) 22. The theology is weak. They tend to become kings when in power too long. Even if they do end up with Pythonesque theology that embarrasses more thoughtful calvin sympathisers. A final troubling trend I believe plagues America's "Calvinist revival" is egotism. It's because Caleb was allegedly involved in multiple sexual relationships while on staff at daddy's church and he was, The Gospel Coalition now says not everyone can be a missionary. Put more simply, I view others as if I were an Arminian and myself as if I were a Calvinist. I check out on their sub and they lile John Calvin and said that his theologybwas a major necessity to make their 33(?) elatigirl Im with you here, which is why I dont post much on these theological threads It seems useless to me to try to figure out God especially as Scripture makes it clear that he has many attributes on either end of the spectrum. Attendance at Calvin-influenced worship conferences and churches is up,. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Instead of debating, try to learn from the other person. That means doing it even when the other person does not reciprocate. Look for them. I dont believe that this is the scenario that Jesus presented to his disciples. However, when a woman has been abused for years by the men in her life, its going to be natural that she lashes out at men and not feel safe around them. Should that be will be a Calvinist since that is in the future?!?!?! Calvins instituted Christian Religion is very much a place for the wise and learned, and hidden from little children. You have nothing to do with it. Bailey Smith. I might also note that TWC is not the same as Calvinism. There are few things harder to deal with than love that is condescending and devoid of respect. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). Carson D. James Kennedy J.I. Study some good books that present the non-Calvinist point of view. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. And if we go to ourselves, were going to get something like what elastigirl wrote above. But this is not a problem of Calvinism only, its a problem that all who believe in an all powerful, good God have to contend with. I think that desiring a nice complete and in itself non-contradictory theological system is our undoing. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. Per PSA, I am pretty sure that that is the official stance of the Lutheran end of thingsbut I really shouldnt be talking about theories of the atonement because I havent studied them worth a hoot. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. Association of Related Churches It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. (Cue Calvinists crowing in predestined triumph) If the Institutes were a lifes work, Id expect a little length. There is a prominent member in our church who is also in our study group. He or she who has the bigger gun or knife or bombhe or she who has the juggernaut of platform or Church Leadership seniorityis the one who gets to compel others to their point of view. whose beliefs have little to do with either Calvin or Arminius. When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. To me, that question is the greatest challenge to Christianity there is. I think that is biblical. Nicholas what a great link. I agree with that perspective as well. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved. I had found the light. Accept that they believe in a God of love even if you do not know how they get there. Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. If this is so, its really astounding. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. They are harmed by the teachings they sat under and then accused of misrepresentation when they blog about it. Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? I often wonder how Sproul Sr. feels about the fact that his son has gone soooooo far off the theological rails. It was you! But I can say, knowing what I now know about God, that God would never ever ever have set the evil I suffered in place intentionally. I watched past the first 15 minutes to watch the whole thing, and the video host quotes Calvinists at many times (showing their quotes typed up on the screen), and some of the Cals he quoted do believe God is the author of evil. Grabs your hand and raises your arm & enthusiastically shows you off as The winner and still the champ! Feels your joy with you. They are letting someone else handle driving. whats wrong with mess anyway? To how many times I felt unsure and afraid & indeed crashed and burned big time in front of people. Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. He, as I said previously, shows quotes by Calvinists during the video. Because only THEY have the right interpretive assumptions. Sproul Ive learned much from him, though I dont always agree. He said I was wrong. We are brothers and sisters in Christ. Regarding the idea of God controlling every molecule, Sproul (and the Westminster Confession of Faith) asserts that God is in control of everything, but never in such a way to do violence to the will of man or make God responsible for evil. Im glad you brought this up, though, I probably need to put a disclaimer on the Calvin Free-For-All post. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot. As some of you know, I have been through my share of abuse, not nearly as graphic and terrible as some, but enough to leave its scars. There are lot of things that I dont see how it fits. Eventually I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek while reading a LifeMagazine article about "The Groovy Christians of Rye, New York." Although occasionally hurt by these accusations of heresy, he responds like a gentleman. Or reformed, predestined, predestination, sovereignty,. But RC, as a neo-Cal intellectual, is, I think, trying to avoid what so many Calvinists do with regularity, and have no problem with it: concede that at the root of what they believe are ideas that simply cannot be reconciled. Because their first and most precious assumption is that truth is forever beyond any human agency. I do hope when I sad that comment, I said illogical TO ME, as in general I hesitate to call other people views illogical. @ Hester: Not in the sense that Calvinists view PSA, I think. And unless I misunderstand Jesus diatribes against the teachers of the law, theres no filthier or more deceitful idolatry. Thanks for posting it. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. And of course, that is just RC Sproul, though I do know this idea of primary and secondary causes has been around for a while and is not primarily a Calvinist idea. The word "Gospel" which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. Yes, Nouthetic Counseling and a lot of teachers have given this impression, but they are wrong. This is not the Calvinist thought process. I know. I have no problem with thatno one likes to be labeled. I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. Below is an OP from 2006. Makes available his super-ability where your ability comes to an end. (I mean, Star Trek?). I would be happy, however, to never use the label Calvinist again, out of respect for Jeff and Jeff. But to have to constantly think, Must remember its for Gods glory is sheer legalism and bondage. @ JeffB: Luther also wrote a great deal about Romans 8 and similar passages. I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. 1911. I dont see you behaving as a bully. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. @ Jeff S: I understand, and realize that you *do* wrestle with this as do we all, to a greater or lesser degree. We have a question for you? So I Must Be! as the indicator. . I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. Ever. This is not the way toward peace. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. In practice its a bit like saying Catholicism in the latter youve got everything from evangelical Catholics through liberation theologians and the very conservative ones who want to go back to Latin masses and pre-Vatican II. Comments moving to the To Calvinist posts from this point. I used try but I have given up. Per the God as author of evil thing, Ive only ever heard of one Calvinist who came close to saying this and it was Sproul Jr. @ Muff Potter: I know this all too well, Im afraid, but it goes for *anything* even art, music, theater, etc. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. Good point. And so, I also agree with Nick on this: To me, being fed pat answers is more analogous to being fed sawdust because fibre is good for you.. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love ones neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, You are not far from the kingdom of God. And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. We are. every denomination that isn't explicitly Calvinist: all of them except Presbyterians and Reformed, every denomination that is explicitly non-Calvinist: Methodists, Pentecostals, Adventists, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox. (It had seemed strange to pay for a gift. If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? I could not get past the point of believing that God had ordained my abuse until I discovered there was another way of putting the jigsaw together. Purity of Ideology, Dee. Paige Patterson 18. Behaviorallyyes, I would concede that Jeff S and Jeff B are NOT hyper. There is one more point that I do want to make, though. John Knox should be in the Reformation category (he lived in the early 1500s, not 1700). We are. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. They should not get to define theology that has been around much longer than them.